Thursday, May 2, 2013

The End of MAN-kind Part 2 (Oops)

Tenets of Modern Feminism.

There are several broad and widespread beliefs that feminists and their advocates taut. Trying to find a consensus on the subject is frustrating. After exhaustive research I can find about 6 main points that they all agree on, with only a couple of exceptions. Keep in mind this is the modern definition of the term, because as early as the late 1700s is when you can actually trace the beginnings of a real "movement" effecting change in our country, often called Protofeminism.

Point #1- Feminists believe that Men and Women should be equal in all arenas, be it careers, education, society, politics, etc.
In theory this does not sound bad at all. However when you actively try and make this happen, you get a backlash, you inevitably favor one over the other because we are in fact... different. The end result is inequality at even the most basic levels of our society. You are taking two different weights and putting them on a balance, and rigging the scales to make them even. That's not equality, that's bullshit, in both directions. Also despite this claim, they typically never will admit to any inequality that is subverting men, even if it is blatant.

Point #2- Feminists for the most part, believe that women have been oppressed through the ages and through to the present day by a mysterious force called "The Patriarchy"
If they would squeegee their brains out, they would realize everyone has been oppressed by this "Patriarchy" as they define it. This does not make women special in this regard. There was oppression of women just as much as there was an oppression of men, I suppose the astute feminist would argue that women were just oppressed more. We will investigate this further.

Point #3- Feminists believe that males have an inherent social/biological privilege that creates a condition in which men can flourish, and women cannot.
I suppose there is a strange sort of irony in this, because it is the very idea that males have more inherent privilege that makes them blind to the idea that they in fact have inherent privilege as well. I have gathered that the argument put forth by feminists is that the male version of privilege is more powerful and is much more easily wielded.

Point #4- Feminism advocates that women can fulfill the exact same role as a man can.
The famous "I can do anything a man can do" mantra. While I readily admit there is a large swath of overlap that makes your gender irrelevant to your capacity, there are differences that prevent this from being absolute. This is just wrong. That fucks up their argument doesn't it? It invalidates all of the previous points and declares there is no inequality that favors men except whatever women let occur.

Point #5- Feminism seeks equality for women against cultural, religious, and traditional tendencies in places where they have been denied any recourse.
Again, sounds like common sense. However in these cultures you find unerringly that if they are brutal towards women, they are also brutal towards men. No real headway is going to be gained from this until you combat the entire problem. Although this is perhaps the most humanist and logical theme you can find amongst them, they fail to realize that by helping and politicking just for the women, you often dig them deeper in the hole. This is an almost universal trend amongst feminists, but you tend to notice some circles care only to advocate for change that will effect them in their countries.

Point #6- Any challenge to Feminism is anti-woman, and enforces negative stereotypes.
Without question, this is the longest stretch, however if you keep reading and investigating, you can draw no other conclusion that this is indeed an almost universal feeling amongst feminists of today.

Again, it was really hard to define these just 6 points. There are so many contradictions and opposing viewpoints even within feminism that it gets really confusing to keep track of all of them. Some feminists are for prostitution, some are against it. Some think pornography is liberating, others think it is abhorrent. Some think that written history is purposefully portrayed from a male perspective, some think that idea is total bullshit. In the end, it becomes very difficult to find a real unified theory as it were, and there is really no centralized set of ideas which to draw from. However, these are the themes that seem to come up the most often, and I feel it is fair to them on the whole. You can find radicals who say they will abort their baby if they find out its a boy, because they don't want to hurt women by breeding another rapist. You can find feminists who draw attention to the media portrayals of women being as being sexist, without realizing there is sexism against men as well. You can find those who feel that all sexual activity between men and women is rape.

In the end, this is a pendulum with a fixed roll moment. Feminism in theory is equality for all. Feminism in practice is that you get equality by just focusing on the issues of one side of the equation, which of course violates the definition of equal. Part 3 will deal with this in detail.


Jersey McJones said...

You'll need to show some evidence of Point 1 or it's just "bullshit."

Point 2 is just silly. You really don't see how women would fair in particular and uniquely under patriarchy compared to say, men in a patriarchy???

Point 3 is very simplistic and I don't think any feminist feels that way, or at least in that way.

Point 4 is again simplistic and untrue, by most feminists, and science, would agree that women can do anything a man can do given the same controls.

Point 5 sounds like you're just making stuff up to fill space. And in a real bit of sad irony, feminists are usually smart enough to avoid digging deeper holes for women in bad situations, while anti-feminists are usually the worst offenders of that kind of demagoguery.

Point 6 is a lie. The feminist movement is diverse and complex. The definition of "feminism" alone is subject to debate pretty much whenever it's brought up.


Anonymous said...

What the hell? I admit this is out of order for whatever reason, jackie might have to intervene.

I do like a good game of devil's advocate, but now I feel like you are just trolling me.

look up the word feminist, the very definition of word. That is more or less exactly what point #1 is. I mean you need me to provide proof that there are dictionaries too? Are you truly that desperate to not acknowledge anything presented based upon merit?

Point #2 is not silly if something they believe never existed. Point #2 is like them believing in the easter bunny.

Go to ANY feminist site look for the phrase male privilege. It's a major central theme.

You are saying there is no differences between men and women. Do I have to have the talk with you sir? Also doesn't that negate the need for feminism?

So I am making it up that the mainstream feminist movement advocates for equality for women in say, Sudan? I made that up?

Point 6 is a stretch, sure, but not nearly as big of a stretch as shit you say all the time.

Also, you are clearly able to define feminism and anti-feminism enough to tell me I am wrong? You are full of SHIT you you have to realize that. I can't possibly know what feminism is, but you can, and then from the mountainside dictate to me that I cannot know it because it is diverse and complex... but you can!

I have not misrepresented any theme that the mainstream feminist groups do not advocate, sans point 6, because that is an inference based upon observation. I have realized enough while researching this that they rage on people who oppose them.

Your idealistic and noble feminism does NOT exist in the mainstream, only the fringe... and if I wanted to discuss the fringe, I could just site that all men are rapists, and all boys will be rapists, and that women should exterminate men.

Anonymous said...

I am tired as hell, also I wrote that on my phone, so I couldn't proofread until after I posted.

I haven't misrepresented any theme that the mainstream groups, the lion's share, the majority advocate. I will admit to you that it is not the feminist movement of the past, those people who actually were humanists. Their ideology has been hijacked.

#1 isn't even a slam against them and you want to argue! Shit!

Jack Camwell said...

Mea culpa. For whatever reason, blogger didn't save this and publish it when I scheduled it to publish, so the articles are out of order.

Jersey, AHB addresses much of this in part 3. This was meant to be a preliminary thing.

Jersey McJones said...

C'mon, man, when it comes to point 1, I wasn't arguing that feminists don't "believe that Men and Women should be equal in all arenas," but the idea that "when you actively try and make this happen, you get a backlash, you inevitably favor one over the other because we are in fact... different. The end result is inequality at even the most basic levels of our society. You are taking two different weights and putting them on a balance, and rigging the scales to make them even.... Also despite this claim, they typically never will admit to any inequality that is subverting men, even if it is blatant."

This is why I said you need proof. What inequality is the end result? How? Why? You need to spell that out. I don't see how it creates inequality at all. And how so are they "two different weights?" Yes, there are differences, but in real life, how much do those differences matter under the law? How is a man more weighted to be an engineer, or an accountant, or a doctor, or an assembly line worker, than a woman? Sure, there are plenty of examples where just physical size and shape make a difference, but no one is arguing that a person who can't swing a hammer should be forced into the construction business, man or woman.

As for point 2, you are asserting that Patriarchy simply didn't and doesn't exist??? WTF, man???

I am not saying there is no difference between men and women. I and most any feminist or pro-feminist would say that given the same controls there is no physiological difference that precludes women from anything men can do. I don't know if you understand that position.

When it comes to advocacy of women in more backwards, misogynistic parts of the world, the feminist movement, for the most part, is very careful about how it broaches the subject so as to avoid making things worse for women in those places, while anti-feminists, pretending to be advocates of women, demagogue such places, denigrating rather than trying to open communications, and worse yet, holding such places up as examples to show how wonderful things are here, in advocacy of our status quo, or going backwards.

As for point 6, your rant aside, there is a very straight-forward set of tenets to "mainstream feminism" the unites most all it's philosophies. The common core philosophy is this: Women should be treated equally under the law, their bodies should be theirs and theirs alone, and they should be assisted forward from where they are held back. That's the "mainstream." The various and multitude of specific feminist philosophies are very hard to lump together beyond that core.

It reminds me of "natural law," another set of philosophies that are really all over the place, but in the end come down to a few basic tenets. Sure, you have radical natural law types, but they are not the mainstream.


Anonymous said...

You have... to be shitting me?

You think we are equal under the law?

Wake. Up. I pray you never have a family member or a son or anyone that is falsely accused of sexual harrassment, rape, etc. There are plenty, PLENTY of ways women have legal leverage over men... I really have to spell this all out for you?

In child custody women are favored a great deal over men.

Affirmative action favors women over men.

In sexual harassment/stalking cases the women is more or less believed without a shred of evidence. I have lived the latter and so has about 5 other men I know personally.

In matter of domestic violence, if the man so much as sneezes at her, he goes to jail even if it was her who started it.

In the justice system, by and large, women will serve a 40% less sentence for an equivalent crime. A man robs a bank at gunpoint and gets away with 1000 bucks, he gets 10 years lets say. A woman does the same exact shit at the same exact store and on the average she will get 4 years.

After marriage women are somewhere around 90% more likely to get an alimony/child support, when there is a near equal income situation. Often women are treated to a great deal more than really deserve when they split the assets.

This is just the tip of the iceberg mang. This is just LEGAL inequalities that are blatant and in your face. Not to mention all the cultural bullshit like women being exempt from selective service, women having more scholarships, women being able to encroach in "Men Spaces" without penalty, I mean the list goes on and on and on and fucking on.

Surely you are not that naive?

Yes, Patriarchy, as they would have it be told, is some ungodly terrible injustice that was and is bestowed solely unto women for the singular purpose of hamstringing them. Nothing has ever existed in that form. Men had authority because they had vastly more responsibility AND accountability.

"I am not saying there is no difference between men and women. I and most any feminist or pro-feminist would say that given the same controls there is no physiological difference that precludes women from anything men can do." Make up your mind.

Jersey, wake up and smell what you are shoveling, please. Your little definition is like the early 1900's version with the suffragettes. That does not represent even 1% of modern feminists. That's like me saying the democratic party is for the Gold Standard because Dennis Kucinich thought so.

There are people like Erin Pizzey, who started the first domestic violence shelter in the WORLD and who was a feminist Demi-God who has since renounced her feminism ideals. Warren Farrell was on the board of NOW for 3 years, the only man ever to do so, and HE has split from the hijacked version of mainstream feminism and advocates only the old values.

I don't think we are going to resolve this when clearly you either too blind to the fact that feminism has morphed into an actual industry where people are paid to promote it and it has become a monster to all of us, or you are purposefully not acknowledging what I am presenting because you don't want to believe it.

Anonymous said...


Anonymous said...



Jersey McJones said...

Brevity: like making an airplane sound for a child taking a spoonful of medicine.

I'm sure there are people out their who abuse the law. I doubt women do more of the abusing.

You guys have problems.


Always On Watch said...

I'm not sure that women are happier since the advent of Feminism.

Some women PREFER more traditional roles, IMO. I have more than one friend who falls into that particular category. But when they express their desire for a more traditional role, "liberated" women get all snarky.

In my view, the best outcomes of feminism are as follows: better pay than before feminism came along, being approved of for choosing certain careers (automotive mechanics and drag racing, for example), being able to escape certain abusive situations, and access to higher education.

I'm not sure that we women are as cherished now, however. We're off our "pedestal," I think -- and that's both good and bad.

Case in point....When I'm struggling to get Mr. AOW's mobility device (his scooter) out of the trunk of the Crown Vic, males just stand around instead of helping. Maybe they're concerned that I'll turn on them and scream, "I'm the strong woman! I don't need your help!" Well, I do -- especially at my age (61).

Always On Watch said...

Off topic....Thank you the compliment that you paid me over at FreeThinke's site. I left a comment for you over there.

Anonymous said...

Absolutely. I am in the middle of writing the part of what are the positive aspects of feminism, and there are several noteworthy positives... however those are largely in the past.

Jersey seems to think I am out of my mind for even suggesting that the feminist movement has been hijacked into this super entitlement mentality.

It's interesting you mentioned no one wanting to help you out... I am reminded of a story some years ago about a man who saw a really young girl wandering around by herself, that he was too afraid to go up and ask her if she was lost for fear of what absolute insanity they would throw at him for talking to her. Later on of course, when she was kidnapped by someone else, the police and the public wanted to chastise this guy up and down for not doing something.

Sick twisted men who kidnap girls aren't afraid of shit.

Honest hardworking men are afraid that little girls could ruin their lives.

That's the table that has been set.

As far as women being off their pedestal, in some ways yes, in some ways no. I know personally, in the past I was always kind and polite to women, but after more than a few run-ins with them where my kindness was taken as something else entirely, everything accusing me to being a rapist to accusing me of being a sexist pig and a pervert... for absolutely no reason at all. Hell I have even held the door open for women at the gas station or whatever and have gotten dirty looks.

Just can't win. As Dave Chappelle says "Chivalry is dead, and Women Killed it."

Always On Watch said...

I agree with your assessment: the feminist movement has been hijacked into super entitlement mentality.

We do live in a time of that kind of mentality with regard to several matters.

Hell I have even held the door open for women at the gas station or whatever and have gotten dirty looks.

I believe it! I've seen it!

I really miss the old days when a man would offer his hand to help me board a bus.

I find pockets of chivalry, but those pockets are getting fewer and fewer.

BTW, I grew up with a father who stood up every time a woman not in the immediate family entered the room. In fact, it was that very act of respect for women that made my mother think to herself back in 1950 (when chivalry was on its way out in D.C, where she worked), "This man knows his manners." They went on to get married.

Anonymous said...

Right, well what incentive does a woman have to keep a man around anymore? She can get whatever money she needs by fleecing a guy in a divorce. Young women as I said have sex on tap, they can sleep around with however many men they want. Try that as a young man and you will find that it is mind boggling how horrible women can be to you.

Women seem to label a guy as creepy for no reason. "Creep" is a euphemism for "not attractive" wherein a young woman around my age or college age will do whatever she wants with the guys who are clearly only after sex.
Meanwhile any guy who tries to legit start a relationship is just shot down instantly.

I have a friend who is big into the PUA scene. Before he started his don juan act, he was as desperate as the rest of us. Now after basically learning the PUA skills he doesn't ever stick to one woman and most of time is juggling 2 or 3. These are intelligent women too, ones I would hope that could see through him for what he is. On the flip side, my more reserved friends and I are still left out in the cold, rejection after rejection. Where did this sense of anti-romance spawn from??

Always On Watch said...

A lot of what you just mentioned is directly related to "The Sexual Revolution." That revolution has adversely affected us women too in that some guys seem to think that we must have immediate sex with them because we must be on the pill.

Let me speak from my own personal experience now....

If we women refuse to hop into bed, we are called all sorts of things -- and, of course, spending weekends home alone. If we women hop into bed, we are only so much meat on the market.

I'm glad that I've been married for over 40 years! I wouldn't want to go back to "the dating scene" now!

BTW, you might want to take a look at THIS RELATED POST over at Silverfiddle's site.

Anonymous said...

Yes, Silver mentioned that post back in part 1B I think, was a good read.

hah, fair enough, but specifically what I am going after here is what changed?

Why is it that decent friends of mine who take care of themselves, are well read, have good careers going and are all around good people cannot for the life of them even get a second date?

I am not even talking about casual sex at this point, that is way off the table. I am talking about actual dating... getting to know someone.

You can go to a site like OkCupid's blog to get a handle on the young internet savvy dating scene. The statistics they have on there are just crazy, like 85% of guys fall below average attractiveness, 98% of women never sign up for the paid personals, and just use the free service... whereas men by and large have to pay the subscription to get noticed.

Personally, I have just given up. It's not worth it to me anymore. I have better things to do than sabotage my life.